Ep. 326 Jeff Landsman | New Year + Ups and Downs of Business

2020 has begun and Joel sat down with longtime friend and fellow entrepreneur Jeff Landsman of Phase 6 Productions to discuss goals for the new year, the ups and downs of business, favorite Chicago Pizza and the improper use of the word literally.  

Joel Goldberg:
Welcome in to Rounding The Bases, the first episode of 2020. Happy new year everyone. I am Joel Goldberg and I have a repeat guest who was on earlier in 2019. It is my lifelong friend Jeff Landsman who owns a company called Phase6 and we're doing this because one, we have a tradition, by the way, hi Jeff.

Jeff Landsman:
Hello.

Joel Goldberg:
We have a family tradition. I would say maybe, I'm guessing maybe 15 of the last 17 years, something like that, our families to the point where when our oldest were not even born yet, but our wives were pregnant with them, we had our first new year's celebration together kind of as adults and you know, somewhat newlyweds or newer married. And we've been doing this every year. Kids, us, our wives and so here we are in Chicago and I thought this will be a great time to talk about 2020 coming up so here we are.

Jeff Landsman:
I love it. I love it. Yeah, we've been doing this for as long as I can remember, and it really is something that we just sort of hold as a tradition where we don't even really discuss it until it's starting then we go, "Wait, wait, wait, what are we doing? What?" So yeah, no, I'm so excited to be on the show in person, too so.

Joel Goldberg:
Yeah, last time we recorded, not in the same place, not in the same city. So Jeff's lived in Chicago pretty much his whole life outside of his time at school at Indiana as a Hoosier. And if you listen to the past episode, we talked about him working for Oprah among other places and Dr Oz and he's an editor. And so what I wanted to do is, I think everybody is talking new year's resolutions right now. We're not going to get into all of the, I want to lose weight, I do, I want to stop doing this and that. Okay but I want to talk just more from a business standpoint of coming into this new year. The thing I love about baseball is there's always a new year. It starts with pitchers and catchers reporting in February so that's in about six weeks and you wipe the slate clean and whether you're a last place team or a first place team, you start fresh and you hope, you think you have a chance to do it all that year, it doesn't always work out. So, what about for you? I know that you've got a nice little streak going right now. You're in a business where business comes and goes. What's your mindset going into 2020?

Social Media = Adding Value to Others vs. Boasting About You

Jeff Landsman:
Well I do think it's important to look back. You and I were talking last night and I think it's important to look back at 2019 and kind of look at it as one big chunk and go well what worked last year and what didn't work and then adjust based on whatever those answers are. And then in 2020 set yourself a goal for whatever worked, build on that and whatever didn't work, adjust and fix that. You do a great job with social media. I thought last year you did a phenomenal job on LinkedIn with all your postings and I like what you do. I like seeing these sort of just positive quotes from your podcast or something that you may have heard or it's just good energy that you put out there and it reminds people, hey, Joel's out here, he's a speaker, he's also a TV and he's around. And so one of my business goals in 2020 is not only to continue to plant the seeds, which we talked about on your show, but also to elevate my social media game.

Joel Goldberg:
Well, I've got to give credit to Danielle Welch, my marketing manager, who does such a good job with all of that, but it's by design, it's certainly a plan and a lot of it is her plan and she knows how to read me and what I'm trying to do, which is really longterm building a brand beyond baseball. I'm lucky enough to have broadcast baseball for 12 years in Kansas City so not that you stop working on that, but there's been a lot of repetition for a lot of years and so this and the speaking business and the podcast and some other projects coming up is still relatively new over the last few years. But to me, the king with everything, no matter what you're doing, if you're looking to build a brand, it's content. It's all about content. And I don't know if I fully understood that when this started, other than the fact that I started this podcast understanding that would be a chance to reach out and meet new people, tell some stories, which I love doing. I'm a storyteller, but content is king. You know that in your business more than anything.

Jeff Landsman:
I would like to ask you a question before I answer that and that is, give the listeners an example of bad content because I followed a lot of social media this year. I think you have really good content, but I followed a few different people I respect and some of the content that I personally saw was just bad and some of it was great. So what is your definition of content that may not work?

Joel Goldberg:
Well, I'll tell you my definition of content that does work. It's content that adds value to someone's life. And so whether that be entertaining them, whether that be informing them, there has to be a purpose.

Joel Goldberg:
One of the best pieces of advice that I got was from a woman named Barb Teicher and she'll be on the podcast in 2020 and we're holding off on that. She's got quite the story to tell. She's a speaker, a TEDx speaker, she's spoken around the world, but she had a serious accident, which really sidetracked her career for a year. So, it's going to be a story of resilience. But Barb, when I met with her early in my speaking career, told me, she said, "Don't tell stories for the sake of telling stories because they won't have you back over and over again. What are the points you want to make and then pick your stories that support that point." Basically meaning have a message.

Joel Goldberg:
And so I think that's the same thing with content and social media and whatever you're doing. Ask yourself the question of why or what's the purpose? And if you're just doing it for the sake of doing it, and look, I understand that there are a lot of people that are on social media that just do it for the entertainment and they want to talk about what they ate for breakfast and lunch and dinner, not my style. To each their own. That's fine. But I think there needs to be some strategy to all of this and you can help people in different ways, too. I mean, I don't think it needs to be this one message is going to apply to everybody in the same way. And I think that you also, I learned this from Danielle, you need to mix it up. You can't fall into a rhythm because we all-

Jeff Landsman:
That's good.

Joel Goldberg:
We all get kind of just mesmerized and robotic with things but when you're challenging people to think. So, that's my take on it. I guess I didn't answer the bad-

Jeff Landsman:
Well, I can give you an example of one that I was watching last year and I won't say the name of who or the name of the company, but these are people that I respect and what they did on social media often was post about what they're working on or look at these awards that we won or whatever and rarely did they post something like the kinds of things you post where it's a positive affirmation or some sort of tip or a quote from somebody. It was always about them. Look at what we did, look at what we did, look at what we're doing. And I think the intention is to get people to bandwagon on and go, "Oh, I want to be a part of that," but it's actually a turn off.

Jeff Landsman:
I asked a couple people that not only work with the company but also know of the company. And I said, "Well what do you think of that?" And they said, "Oh, well it actually makes me not want to work with them because it comes across as, not bragging, but a little obnoxious." And so there's sort of a fine line that I think you have to tread when you're posting a lot. It's okay to celebrate your successes of course but when that's all that you do, I think it's a mistake.

Joel Goldberg:
I think there are also ways to do it. So I think to me, if you're celebrating your company's success, how about highlighting one of the unsung heroes?

Jeff Landsman:
Someone who helped them, yeah.

Joel Goldberg:
Or telling someone's stories. And so I think that there are ways to do it without saying, me, me, me, certainly look at us and be able to tell that story is huge.

Planting Seeds and Waiting for the Harvest

Joel Goldberg:
So, all right, let's get back to 2020 in business. And I know that you and I, when I had you on for an episode, talked about just the highs and lows of entrepreneurship and not knowing. And my situation, I've said it before is different because I have that safety net of baseball still, so that gives me that ability to fail without freaking out and not knowing where the money's coming from the next day. With that said, I want to keep growing my business and so I'm going to have good months and bad months. And I just did a look back at that. I felt like in 2019 my speaking business during the baseball season was down understandably, it always will be, but it was down from what I did the year before. And so it told me that, you know, I back off a lot during the baseball season and I've got to be a little bit more strategic and I've got to be a little bit more efficient in the way that I'm reaching out to people and searching for some of those jobs. But for you, that business can come in big numbers.

Jeff Landsman:
Yeah.

Joel Goldberg:
And then suddenly you're scratching your head saying, "I've got nothing. Where is it?"

Jeff Landsman:
Yeah.

Joel Goldberg:
Right now it sounds like you're on a little bit of a hot streak, so-

Jeff Landsman:
Yeah.

Joel Goldberg:
How did you get there because it wasn't just an overnight thing.

Jeff Landsman:
Well, actually it's really a follow up to the show that I was on, on your show. I spent last year 2019, one of the things I felt that I was successful at was planting those seeds and really, when I say plant the seeds, I don't mean when you email someone or you reach out and then you go, "Well let's see what happens." You have to water it, you have to go back and every three to six weeks say, "Hello." Remind them that you're there but do it in sort of that challenging proper way where you're not annoying them.

Jeff Landsman:
And I said to you on your show, I really believe that if I kept doing that, they wouldn't all grow but some of them would. And I have four separate projects that are all launching, starting in January, actually in the few days that all were as a result of those seeds and all new clients, all four. And so also I worked with a big agency a lot and they were bought by another agency and so there's sort of a question mark as to what their business model will be. And you know, I work with them a ton and my intention is to continue to work with them but there are certain things you can't control. So when you see sort of that chess game, when you see that those moves happening in the future, you have to kind of get ahead of it and go, well if this happens this way and then this happens this way, I need to be prepared so that I'm still busy working with other clients.

Joel Goldberg:
I mean, I think so much of mine, yes, you have to have the talent, but I still believe first and foremost in the importance of relationships, connections, building trust, and then look, if you have the talent that will all pay off. If you don't, you know you're not going to make it. You can't fake it for that long.

Jeff Landsman:
Right.

Joel Goldberg:
Maybe for a little while. How much of your business, because you're extremely creative, you're an incredible, amazing, talented editor. There are other talented editors-

Jeff Landsman:
Oh sure.

Relationships allow you to build something. Talent means you can simply do something.

Joel Goldberg:
In Chicago here all around the country, all around the world, so I'm sure there are some that are thought of as being the greatest ever, but for the most part, even if you're in the elite, there are thousands of others out there. So, how much is talent and how much is relationships?

Jeff Landsman:
I think in every business that's true, that it's always relationships are first, right? I think relationships, that's your opportunity to build on something. You know, when I reach out to a client that doesn't know who I am, it's an uphill battle from the beginning. When it's a connection through someone who's recommending me, which is usually how it goes, you already have that initial sort of block removed and that may not be a direct relationship with a potential client, but it's someone that I knew or knows of me who recommended me and it's everything, Joel. I mean, it really is. I would say 90% or more of my business since I started the company almost five years ago is based on relationships. Either people I worked with when I worked for Oprah or when I worked in the advertising world for 15 years. It's extensions of people I knew in those spots. It's everything.

Joel Goldberg:
And how often does that business come or how often are you surprised a year later, two years later, three years later? Those seeds don't always come a couple of months later.

Jeff Landsman:
Oh no, I mean in this case all these projects that are happening in January are a year later from when I had my new year's resolution in 2018 to '19 it was solely to plant seeds and see what happens because I could see sort of what was happening. I had a lot of work from one client and it kind of scared me. It was like, well, this could keep going or it could dry up or who knows what's going to happen and you know, it's really the hardest part is being patient because you need the income, you want to be working but especially in the early stages of a company where you're around for less than five years. It's a different challenge than say if you're around for 10 years because you're still establishing your brand, you're establishing who you are, what you do, what your company has to offer. So yeah the hardest part is waiting, Joel. It really is.

Joel Goldberg:
All right. So, you talked about past resolutions or goals. What is it then for 2020 beyond seeds?

Jeff Landsman:
Well, it's the social media. It really is. And I think what you're doing, it's a natural fit for what you do for during the baseball season for your day job, we'll call it during, well I guess day at night, your job during the season and then your speaking job outside of baseball season. It really is what you've done is a really nice job of being out there without being obnoxious. And I think I'd like to start to do some video. I've got that Osmo Pocket, I think just doing a little bit of work with that and a little bit more posting and following your lead and the kinds of things you post is like my number one goal.

Jeff Landsman:
And then the other thing is you can't plant seeds, water them and go, "Well I'm done with the seeds." There's still plenty of seeds that are out there that I've been watering that are not dead. I mean they may take two years to blossom, some may never happen but I do believe there are a couple out there that still will turn into something.

Joel Goldberg:
I feel like for me one of the things that I want to get better at is just being more consistent with the followup. I'm constantly making new connections and so sometimes when you keep adding, so I'm not subtracting-

Jeff Landsman:
Yeah.

Joel Goldberg:
You're adding and adding and adding and sometimes I find myself forgetting about some of those connections that I made in the past. I mean there are some of the ones that you make that are just going to pop up in your life on a regular weekly, monthly basis and then they don't take work. They just happen with a text message or whatever it is, but there's some that you have to work at and you should be working at. To me, I feel like some of those would slip through the cracks for me.

Jeff Landsman:
Yeah. I think the way to follow up with those clients that you may be not forgetting about, but they're just sort of lower on the list is I have a folder in my email which is just called clients saved and in there I will consistently go through it every couple of weeks and remind myself who those clients are and I'll reach out if it's something like I'm thinking about like music that we liked or a movie that we were talking about last time, I'll follow up in that way. It doesn't always have to be a business related email.

Jeff Landsman:
And the other trick I learned this year is it's really good to email either Tuesday or Thursday between 9:00 and 10:00 AM. It's a good time to reach people, that's just statistically, that's when they respond with Wednesday being like a close second to that. So, that's what I do. I'll just, after a few weeks, oh, I haven't talked to this person in two months. I'm just going to say hi. I remember last time we were talking about Star Wars, so I'll just follow up and let them know what I thought of the movie.

Big to Small Goals for 2020

Joel Goldberg:
All right, so talked about goals for 2020. I know I usually do the home run, the swing and the miss, the small ball. Let's put it in these terms maybe for each of us. What's a home run? Just something big that you would like to accomplish in 2020?

Jeff Landsman:
I'm working on some big projects. Well, they're not new, some are just returning clients, but I'd like them to become a sort of, not allies, but I really like to form of partnership with some of these new clients in 2020. So it's important to do a great job on the project you're hired to do but I'm playing this like chess, too. I'm looking at the long game with these newer clients and I'd like to establish relationships with them where it's less great job on this one thing and more we can trust Jeff at Phase6 Productions to sort of solve our problems and bring great creativity to the things we need.

Joel Goldberg:
I think for me, I've never viewed myself as a home run hitter. I truly am a small ball type of guy so I'm not a swing for the fences for better and worse on that one. Not that I won't hit that home on occasionally and maybe I need to think bigger. Maybe that's one of the things, but I think for me it's just going to be this baseball season. It'll be my 13th but this is a big year in Kansas City because they have new ownership and the last owner was here for a long time, David Glass, and you know, sold the team for $1 billion to a local businessman named John Sherman. And he brought along in his ownership group a lot of big time names from Kansas City. It's a very Kansas City owned team now and I feel like just this incredible responsibility to be able to tell all of their stories and get to know them and really to be able to chronicle this changing of the guard so to speak because it's a different time.

Joel Goldberg:
So, that would be to me, I don't know if it's a home run, but it's certainly a great responsibility. How about just a swing and a miss? And I know we talked about some of the networking and connections, but something that you feel like you really need to do better.

Jeff Landsman:
I need to be more patient. I mean, that's an easy answer. When you're running a business, you really want everything to just happen now, happen now, happen now. It just doesn't work that way and it's really hard. I can say it out loud and be on your show and listen myself back on your other episode and go, "Yeah, you can be patient," but when you're in it and you're waiting and you're not billing, that's the biggest thing and you don't have that income directly coming in based on all the energy you're putting out. It's challenging. It really is.

Joel Goldberg:
Well, you and I have talked about this many times. We give each other the same message. It's funny because it's like, why don't you just give yourself that pep talk that you're about to give me and vice versa, and it's going to turn around and it's not, let's just hope you get lucky. It's like you said before, all those seeds will pay off. If they don't pay off today and tomorrow they will pay off if you're working hard.

Joel Goldberg:
And I think the biggest message I would give people is, again, if you have the talent you control your work ethic.

Jeff Landsman:
Yep.

Joel Goldberg:
It's something that I learned growing up here in Chicago, working at the local hot dog stand for eight years through high school and college, of the importance of hard work. You control that and so that's something you can always do better than other people.

Joel Goldberg:
I think for me, the swing and miss and an adjustment I need to make now is because I'm doing so many things, the podcast, the speaking business, might be looking at writing a book or two and the baseball season and oh by the way, you know, there's family and traveling.

Jeff Landsman:
Right.

Joel Goldberg:
Is just starting to value my time more. I never valued it before. It was just, here's what I'm going to be and here's where I'm going and now it's getting to the point where I've got to make decisions.

Jeff Landsman:
Yup.

Joel Goldberg:
I've got to start investing in myself more in my company more and starting to scale up. And you know, I've done that with Danielle and what she's doing and-

Jeff Landsman:
And you have a lot of guests that actually talk about this. I mean you actually on many episodes talk about this very thing about managing your time and putting value on that.

Joel Goldberg:
So, it's time for me to start doing that. And then how about a small ball goal? What's a little thing for you this year? I think you could probably answer some of what you've already talked about before so now you have to come up with something different. It can be personal, it can be professional. I mean I feel like you're always so into self improvement and self reflection.

Jeff Landsman:
Well, so I mentioned that I was doing the Second City thing on the last show and I had to submit a script and I made it into the final writing, two classes where we're going to actually write a show. And so I call this small ball just because it's not directly related to my career, indirectly, but it is a personal goal and there is a business side of it in that it's rewarding to use a different creative side of yourself or maybe it's not even creative, just a different side of yourself that is not specifically to make money or specifically part of your career path.

Jeff Landsman:
I found that in the last 25 years doing this that I'll do the podcast or whatever and then suddenly I'll get hired to do a project that is podcast related. Now, did I know that those two dots were going to connect when I started the podcast? Absolutely not. But it led to just by doing it, it led to something that I didn't expect. And so I'm sort of hoping this Second City stuff eventually surprises me down the road with the writing because I genuinely love it.

Joel Goldberg:
And you're good at it also. And so Jeff is, he jumped out on a limb at one point and said, "I'm going to try The Second City thing," and now he's caught the bug and comfortable and it's changed the way you go about things in life, taking the risks.

Joel Goldberg:
For me it's now focusing and we're doing this as we speak, maybe not as we speak this moment, but growing the website. I feel like my website when it started was great, but now SEO, being searchable, taking this to another level, providing more content. We've done that on social media and now it's trying to grow this website, JoelGoldbergMedia.com. And so that's a work in progress. Really excited about that. And then just continuing obviously to grow the speaking business.

Joel Goldberg:
All right. Rounding Bases four final questions. We haven't discussed these and then we have to get back to our families because it is-

Jeff Landsman:
They're waiting for us.

Joel Goldberg:
5:30 on New Year's Eve and we've got the kids and the wives back and some deep dish pizza coming. So, let's start with that. Your favorite Chicago pizza is where?

Jeff Landsman:
Well Barnaby's is my favorite Chicago pizza by far. There's a long list and I love a lot of them but Barnaby's, it's a suburb of Chicago but it's delicious.

Joel Goldberg:
Mine is Lou Malnati's, which is a Chicago institution. What we're getting tonight, so that's good. Okay. That's the first question.

Joel Goldberg:
Second question for you, episode nine of Star Wars, I think we established last time you are a Star Wars freak.

Jeff Landsman:
Yep.

Joel Goldberg:
We don't need any spoilers, some people haven't watched it yet. I'm not anywhere near your level. I kind of lump seven, eight and nine together.

Jeff Landsman:
Okay.

Joel Goldberg:
To me, four, five and six are obviously their own thing, the originals. How would you rank the last episode compared to seven and eight?

Jeff Landsman:
Well, compared to seven and eight I liked it as much as seven and more than eight.

Joel Goldberg:
Good.

Jeff Landsman:
Is that good?

Joel Goldberg:
Yeah. Why?

Jeff Landsman:
A lot happened in that movie without doing any spoilers, but I did feel like it had sort of the Star Wars feel, it sort of resolved the nine movies, which I know that wasn't your question and definitely sort of book ended seven. I didn't dislike it, but I liked nine better.

Joel Goldberg:
Third question. As we round the bases, the word literally. Rich Goldberg, the three of us old high school buddies out at a bar having a few drinks and we were both railing on a ward that all of our kids-

Jeff Landsman:
Yeah.

Joel Goldberg:
Literally use every second. No, they don't literally/

Jeff Landsman:
Literally on fire. I was literally on fire. No, you were not. You'd be at the hospital.

Joel Goldberg:
They pulled you out of the house?

Jeff Landsman:
Yeah, exactly.

Joel Goldberg:
Because we were literally on fire.

Jeff Landsman:
Yeah, I was literally on fire.

Joel Goldberg:
How do we get rid of this word in the way it's being used?

Jeff Landsman:
I don't know. With teenagers, I don't know how to re-convince them that saying certain things actually have meaning, but I would just say I call it out. Laila, my daughter, she would say often she would over and over say, "Like, like, like, like," which is a common thing for teenagers to do. And I would say, "You just said like 12 times." She'd say, "All right. I'll try not to." And so you just have to point it out. I don't know. There's no fix. You're asking me to pick something that I don't think can be fixed. What about you? How would you fix it?

Joel Goldberg:
I told you last night, it's like Justin Timberlake bringing sexy back. I want to bring figurative back. I wanted people to use the word figuratively more.

Jeff Landsman:
Yeah. I figuratively was on fire. Okay. Or you can say I was actually on fire if you were actually on fire, but-

Joel Goldberg:
We'll actually, if you were actually on fire, you would just say.

Jeff Landsman:
Right. Or you could say, "Literally on fire." You're asking me to fix something that can't be fixed. It just won't.

Joel Goldberg:
It's just a pet peeve thing of mine and it's-

Jeff Landsman:
I'm right there with you. I mean, adults do it too.

Joel Goldberg:
I know.

Jeff Landsman:
And so you just kind of have to move on and accept society for what it is in certain scenarios and this is one of them.

Joel Goldberg:
And the final question as we round the bases, the walk off 2019 at least as we're recording this, will be coming to a close in the Midwest here in about six hours and now as people are listening to this, it'll be 2020. What are you thankful for?

Jeff Landsman:
Not to be too cheesy, but I really am thankful for this past year. I feel like I've had a lot of business growth and personal growth and I'm genuinely thankful every day. I don't wait until Thanksgiving or the holidays to go, "Oh, I should look back at this year and be thankful." I think it's really important if you want to be a successful person, to have gratitude for the things that are working every day. Now, whether you call that prayer or you call it your moment to just be thankful, whatever it is, I do think it's important to wake up and go, "Oh, I'm thankful for my family. I'm thankful for people that support me. I'm thankful for my friendships and relationships with people like you. And I'm thankful for the success that my business had in living my dreams." I have a long list to be thankful for, but I really think that the lesson that I learned in the last few years is just to be like reminded every day that yes, there are things, uphill battles you're going to face, but before you do, stop and think about what you're grateful for and it does give you that energy you need to get up the hill.

Joel Goldberg:
Yeah. It's all about that energy, it's all about people. I've said that over and over again. I always try to steer guests away from saying my biggest home run was meeting my wife because everybody would say that-

Jeff Landsman:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joel Goldberg:
Because it's true I think in most cases, hopefully in a lot of cases. But I am thankful for my family because with the amount of travel, I mean I'm gone every other week and then when I'm home during baseball season, I'm still working every single day. So, excuse me, I get home and everybody's already asleep and by the time I wake up kids are gone.

Jeff Landsman:
Right.

Joel Goldberg:
And so I'm thankful for my family allowing me to pursue this dream and then this other job which has become not a side hustle really, it's now become-

Jeff Landsman:
It's a job.

Joel Goldberg:
A job.

Jeff Landsman:
Yeah.

Joel Goldberg:
A second job by choice. I love it. I'm equally passionate about TV and the speaking so I'm really thankful for the family and the connections that I've made. I'll say it over and over and over again until the day I die. It's all about people, it's all about relationships. And so I'm thankful for all those, the new relationships that are going to be formed in 2020, the old ones that hopefully will become stronger and I'm excited about more Royals baseball. I can't believe I've been doing it for 13 years.

Joel Goldberg:
And then last of all, I'm thankful for people listening to this podcast. You had a podcast for a long time. You chose not to continue it. You could have very easily. I know that you designed the cover art for this podcast and so I'm just excited to be able to continue to tell these stories, which I so feel privileged to do, whether it's a baseball business and the podcast. So, that is it. Happy 2020 everyone. Jeff, we have a New Year's Eve party to go to.

Jeff Landsman:
Yes we do and I'm going to start a new podcast in 2020 called Upstream Downstream, so look for that. That will be less techie and more about reviewing all these streaming shows with a buddy of mine named Jack from Second City and it'll a little light. It should be fun.

Joel Goldberg:
And Phase6?

Jeff Landsman:
Phase6Productions.com is my, of course, company-wise site and yeah, let's go eat some of that pizza and celebrate with our families.

Joel Goldberg:
We will do that and I predicted it probably when you told me you were ending your last podcast it'll only be a matter of time before you start a new one because I know you so well.

Jeff Landsman:
This it the first podcast I've ever done that was not technology based. The intention of this is to force myself out of my comfort zone, which really is technology and get into a space where it's a little more laid back and fun and do it with another person, too. I've never done that, so it'll be a new challenge. It'll be good.

Joel Goldberg:
He'll have another tech podcast up by 2021.

Joel Goldberg:
Something will be back. All right, Jeff. Thank you very much. Happy New Year everyone and looking forward to an exciting 2020. Thanks for listening to Rounding the Bases with Joel Goldberg.