Jeff Utecht + Dan James: Trust, Technology and Teamwork
Trust has been an important theme in 2024. As I look back incredulous that another year has already come and gone, it is also more clear to me than ever before what a tremendous role trust plays in every situation.
My speaking business saw several exciting developments this year, all of which were all set in motion by the release of my new keynote, Winning Trust. It’s topic that resonates with organizations in a special kind of way. It also led to the redevelopment of the Joel Goldberg Media branding, a new website and added momentum as I finished my second book, Small Ball, Big Dreams, which will be released in January 2025.
On the broadcasting front, it was one of the most exciting baseball seasons we’ve had in years. The Royals made history when they came off a 106-loss season in 2023 to a sweet - if not short - playoff run in 2024. It was a thrill to be a part of, and a feat that was made possible because every person in the Royals organization had trust in the clubhouse process.
For the final episode of Rounding the Bases Season 9, my goal was to look back at a few of the lessons learned this year. Joining me in the discussion were two encore guests. They are longtime friends who have build careers seeing opportunities where others did not. Though their skills are different, they ability to navigate change in their respective industries began with trust.
Dan James is a history-making wheelchair tennis coach turned Founder of Story 19 Consulting who inspires success-driven individuals to exceptional results. Jeff Utecht is a trailblazing tech-ed consultant who is reshaping the way modern learners embrace technology and culture shifts.
As I expected, their perspective on generative AI, generational culture and even some personal triumphs was all phenomenal. Yet as varied as the discussion was, trust was the foundation of it all.
SINGLE: The Power of ConnectioN
Building connections is critically important to success in every field of work. As a sport broadcaster, my ability to do in-game reports is entirely dependent on earning the trust of players, some of whom are the same as as my kids.
That can be difficult in industries where every peer is seen as a competitor. Thankfully, the speaking and consulting world that Dan, Jeff and I reside in is not one of them. Every speaker has a unique area of expertise that allows us to co-exist in harmony. And in fact, when you support others, you are in a way supporting yourself as well.
“Speakers go and talk to other people and you want to be known as … if I can’t make this happen, I k now somebody that can take my spot,” Jeff said. “Those connections are the things that matter.”
As much as I appreciate the camaraderie that has stemmed from my relationship with Dan and Jeff, having a team who wants to see you succeed is even better.
“When you find a small niche group like this that do things a little differently but push each other to be better, it’s actually outstanding,” said Dan.
Whether bouncing ideas off of each other or sharing contract negotiation strategies, collaborations like these are vital to personal and professional development. And trust makes it all possible.
DOUBLE: Generational dynamics in the workplace
The modern workplace is a fascinating mix of generations who work side by side with a shared organizational goals in mind. But the attitudinal differences about how those goals are accomplished has become a source of tension, and in 2024 some have seen values and work styles collide.
“They’ve got a lot of different ideas in the way things should work,” said Jeff, whose expertise is change management around generative AI.
Millennials, the generation that minted the concept of work-life balance, now comprises 40% of the workforce. In addition to believing there is more to life than work, they put a premium on purpose-driven work. It’s a contrast from Baby Boomers, the 25% of workers who emphasize loyalty and routine above all else.
“I’m seeing a lack of connection. And so we’re starting off business relationships … with what we want to accomplish,” Dan observed. “You have to at least invest something in understanding them as a human being first.”
By fostering trust and human connections, organizations begin to create cultures where diverse perspectives thrive.
“I actually tell them … no one cares how brilliant you are until they know you,” expanded an. But the instant that happens? “Everything changes. And now we’re moving in the same direction and creative substantive change.”
TRIPLE: trust in technology
Several years from now, I believe we will look back on 2024 as the year that generative AI fundamentally changed our world. The technology itself is not new. But thanks to heavy hitters like Google and Microsoft stepping up to the plate, so to speak, people have started paying attention in a way they didn’t before.
“It’s another transitional technology,” commented Jeff. “[They] come along about every 20 years … it disrupts the, you know, entire societies. And that’s where we are right now.”
Dan, whose specialty is change management inside leadership groups, spoke freely about initially being uninformed, if not resistant, to generative AI when it was first introduced a few years ago. But under Jeff’s guidance, he has learned to approach it with curiosity instead.
“Where that change is really going to gain momentum is people are going to realize this isn’t a scary thing,” Dan said. “It actually is a tool that can be learned and implemented almost immediately.”
Change is hard, no matter what we’re talking about. As humans, we’re wired to think about everything that could go wrong, instead of the greater good that could come. But the concepts of trust and technology also create a parallel that is impossible to ignore.
“Treading water is falling behind … in this business environment,” observed Dan. “This is coming. How you choose to embrace the change is up to you, but you can’t stem the flow.”
HOME RUN: The evolution of workplace culture
It’s no secret that the pandemic reshaped our world in profound ways. It forced everyone to reevaluate priorities and adjust accordingly, businesses included.
At the height of things, we saw major swings as people went from shutdowns to The Great Resignation. Now that we’ve moved into a period of settling, what has emerged is a trend of companies adopting a more employee-centric approach to business than in the past.
“You’re seeing companies go into that connection culture, valuing their employees as people, in trying to create an environment where growth and development, valuing family, prioritizing family, becomes a regular thing,” commented Dan. “Companies are really starting to live a culture, as they settle in, that values the employee and their actual life.”
The observation brought our discussion back to where it began, with the idea that every generation has a different idea of what life should be.
“It happens every single time as we go through these transitions,” Jeff observed. “We’ve got a couple more years of this cultural transition, but you’re going to continue to see this play out.”
As for me, I believe 2024 has the inflection point in the pendulum. Some of the settling has happened while other remains to be seen. But when we look ahead to 2025, one thing is clear: trust isn’t just a value. It’s the common thread for a brighter, more connected future.
Listen to the full interview here or tune in to Rounding the Bases every Tuesday, available wherever you get your podcasts.
LEARN MORE ABOUT trust FROM JOEL
Book Joel Goldberg for your next corporate event. He draws on over 25 years of experience as a sports broadcaster. In addition, he brings unique perspectives and lessons learned from some of the world’s most successful organizations. Whatever your profession, Joel is the keynote speaker who can help your team achieve a championship state of mind.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Joel Goldberg 0:00
Hey, everybody. Welcome in to another episode. And if you're listening to this the day that it comes out, the final episode of 2024. I know, I mean, the way these podcasts go you may be listening to this in 2027 so just take yourself back to the end of '24. But I trust that most of you are are listening somewhere around when it comes out. My name is Joel Goldberg, and I've had an incredible season. Actually, we're in between. We're on to the next season. But an incredible calendar year of podcasts. Before we we get going with my two returning guests, a couple more shout outs than usual. As always, my friends at Community America Credit Union: Investing In You, and they are invested in you. They are such great partners, and I love doing everything with them, between the podcast and stuff involving Bobby Witt Jr. and Royals baseball, if you're here in Kansas City. And my friends also at Chief of Staff Kansas City. If you're looking for a job or to play, to be placed, to place someone, to whatever it might be a resource, check them out, in and out of Kansas City. Chiefofstaffkc.com. Making Connections That Matter. But also a big thanks to everyone that has been on this podcast this year. Everyone that listens, comes in and out. This is such a such a fun thing for me to be to be able to do, to branch away from baseball, to be able to bring it all together. And I think one of the the beauties of this podcast is the opportunity and the people that I get to meet and and sometimes build friendships with. And that's the case with my two guests today. Oh the other thank yous just to my team. They make all this run. Most specifically Ashleigh Sterr my executive assistant, executive producer. She she runs this whole podcast and so much more. My editor and longtime friend and longtime TV colleague, Colleen Lotz and Kendall Jackson as well, with the promotion side of things. I mentioned, becoming friends with my guests. So as we slide into home, that's Ashleigh's writing, by the way, on another season of Rounding the Bases, I'm welcoming back two guests who see opportunities where others may not. First up is Dan James, who built his career published pushing success driven individuals to exceptional results, once as a history making wheelchair tennis coach and now as the founder of Story 19 Consulting. Next is Jeff Utecht, a renowned tech ed renegade who is aligning culture and education to shift the paradigm for modern learners everywhere. Together, we're going to take a look back at the lessons learned in 2024 and ahead towards those that await in 2025. My only question as I welcome Dan and Jeff and and I'm excited about this because they're good friends, they're they're both up in the Pacific Northwest, at least as we speak. So they've become friends over the years. My only question is, Jeff, I don't know why Ashleigh went with Dan first.
Jeff Utecht 0:49
That's all. That's a really good question. Why she went with Dan first. He is, he is the elder. So maybe that's why? I think age over beauty. So I'll let Dan go first, actually. That's that's the way it should be.
Joel Goldberg 3:22
I think the age order probably goes Dan, Joel, Jeff, I'm guessing,
Dan James 3:25
I've really enjoyed being on this podcast. Thanks for having me. I wish you all the best. Merry Christmas. Happy New Year. Happy 2025. I am officially out.
Joel Goldberg 3:38
I was just about to ask you, but I think it's going to be your home run answer for later. So I'm not going to ask you about the ask you about the best thing that happened to you this year, other than being on this podcast, of course. But you know, the beauty, and I say this so often about networking, is, I got a I got a message, a call, an email, I don't remember, a text from a good buddy of mine here who's been on this podcast many times, Andre Davis, who is a local everything. I mean, one of the best networkers and business development and on and on. And he says, I just met this guy that was in town doing a speech. And you, you really need to meet him. He'd be great on your podcast and and I think that first led to Jeff and I grabbing sushi in Seattle when I was in for Royals / Mariners last year. And then the podcast episode. And then, as we often do, we say, Hey, if you know anybody else, and Jeff introduced me to Dan. And Dan's in Minnesota, back visiting family, and we hang out. And so first and foremost, all, all, I love the fact that you guys have brought me into this little group that that is all for giving each other crap. That that's always a fun thing. But also, you guys both know that, you know the speaking world, and we all do it a little bit differently. We all have some different roles and topics. It could be a lonely role in the sense that you just, you don't bump into a ton of people that are doing it, you know. You get into that sort of circle, and you do, but it's a unique world, and so I'm grateful to have met both of you. And Dan, for some reason, Jeff introduced us, so I'm grateful to that too.
Dan James 5:10
We'll never know why, but, but, you know, it's funny, Joel. You and you talk about making connections, and I think that's one of one of your superpowers. And you talk about being lonely in this speaking world, and part of that is not being pushed. You don't have peers that push you. And so when you find a small niche group like this that do things a little differently, but push each other to be better, it's actually outstanding. And then you end up being very grateful to have that in the industry that we're now working in.
Joel Goldberg 5:37
It's a unique thing too, because, I mean, you know, you've got the sports background, Dan, from the tennis world, and it could be, and I think TV's this way, it could be so cutthroat. And, you know, you can't help somebody else, because that might take your spot. And the beauty of the speaking world is, first off, none of the three of us are competing against each other. Yet, if we were, I don't, there's just enough to go around, and we're all doing very different things in different ways. And so it's sort of nice to have that. It's not competition, just someone, I think Jeff, that understands what this world is, right?
Jeff Utecht 6:12
Yeah, and I think that's a, I mean, I've always, I've always come at this with the work that I do, with the work that we do, an understanding that there's enough for everyone. And when you support others within your circle, you support yourself as well. Because, as we all know, consultants go and talk, speakers go and talk to other people, and you want to be known as, oh, if I can't make this happen, I know somebody that could take my spot, because all of our calendars are all over the place. And so those connections really are, are the things that matters. And to Dan's point, I think a big part of this, and part of what I love about, you know, the three of us is just being able to bounce those ideas off each other. I mean, I can't tell you how many times Dan and I have gone back and forth with, Hey, I'm trying to negotiate this contract. What do you think of this approach or that approach? You know, even little things like that, because every contract is different. Everyone is individual. I don't even know how many 1099s I get at the end of the year. Like it takes me forever to get my taxes with everybody I'm working with. But it's just great to have other people who are in your circle that you can bounce ideas off of. Everything from here's my keynote slide deck, what do you think, to here's how I'm negotiating this contract. What do you think I should ask for? Where do you think because it's that, it's it's in those lines that that learning happens, and I think having people in your circle that can support you in doing that work is is critical, no matter what your job is, right?
Joel Goldberg 7:32
Yeah, and I that's a great point, and that'll segue me to maybe the first thought, about 2024 because, and this is something that everybody will understand. So you know, if you're not understanding, not understanding the speaking end of things, some of it may resonate, like you said, Jeff, that it could really apply to any profession. Some people don't need that others do. But when I look back at 2024 to me, that's a negative is I think about, and my intention is not to get into politics, but this whole country was paralyzed for more than a year. And a product of certainly social media and modern times that it's one way or another, and there's no in between. And to me, there's relief, whether you like the results of the election or not, there's relief to at least be done with it for a bit. I it may be me looking the other direction, because it's not like, suddenly we're all better, but I just got to a point where I'm like, I'm sick of not getting along with people or not sure if I can get along with people. Like, what happened? Maybe I'm being naive, Dan, but what happened to the good old days where you try to help, you know, the Golden Rule type of stuff, and you try to help out your neighbor and and everything. I'm sure that back that, back home in Minnesota, everybody is is doing, but it's not that's not the world we live in anymore. And so I'm just curious both of your perspectives on this year. It does affect business. It does affect the way we're going about things. And at least for me, I feel like when I can go in and speak to an audience and bring some positivity and some hope that maybe that's a distraction from all the stuff that we are slowed down by what have you seen in this past year?
Dan James 9:06
I think it's really hard for folks to differentiate between debate and conflict, you know, and in a super healthy way, when we start to talk about debate, we're talking about ideology, philosophy. It's not personal. And our country had gone into conflict so much that it halted even business communication, which is sort of my specialty in where I live. And so we had focused so much on just this concept of being able to move forward, to to have our debate and move forward and and to exactly what you're saying. Joel, the election is over, and hopefully, as communities, we have the ability to align and move forward and create those positive outcomes and those positive communications which are so critical to success.
Joel Goldberg 9:53
Jeff, how about you?
Jeff Utecht 9:55
Yeah, I think there's, there's a couple of it from my side of point. You know, a lot of the stuff I do is in technology realm, and you talk about some of the things that are happening in the world of social media, I think we all need to have a greater understanding of how that is impacting all of us at different levels. I think understanding how social media can be specifically targeted towards a specific demographic so that you're hearing exactly what they think you want to hear is, I think something that we still need to be critical about, right when we're thinking about these things. So I think about that a lot too. And the part where I've been working on, especially with leadership, is around the same idea, but I come at it from a generational understanding, and looking at it from across the generations. And right now it's quite fascinating. You know, we live in a time where there are four generations in the workplace. We still have boomers on the top end, who make up 25% of the workforce in America, are still baby boomers, and the other bigger one is Millennials make up 40% of the workforce. Those two generations make up 65% of the workforce, and there's a lot of things that are different between them. They've got a lot of different ideas on the way things should work. I think you're looking at, no matter who is going to become our President, we're looking at a boomer, and you're looking now at a House of Representatives, or other people, even in local government, that are becoming more and more this millennial generation. And I think you're going to continue if we're not looking at this through understanding what are the cultures that different generations bring to this, we don't step back and reflect on what is that doing to us as society is at large? And again, you could take that same idea and bring those into into corporations or into your company. Are we looking at the our generational dynamics of what is allowing us to move forward as a corporation? Here in America, we spend over $300 billion a year managing conflict inside of corporations, and a lot of that can be looked at through this lens of, we've got four generations in the workplace, and there's just a lot of things that that brings that we just, I don't think we've dug into yet and understanding what that how that applies to some of the things that we're seeing, that Foss, that we then see. You know, at large, in in our nation.
Joel Goldberg 12:10
You've done some great work in terms of that, that generational piece. And by the way, nobody ever talks about Gen X.
Jeff Utecht 12:17
No. Nobody talks about Gen X.
Joel Goldberg 12:20
Totally, totally left behind.
Jeff Utecht 12:22
Yeah.
Joel Goldberg 12:22
But that that's okay. I feel like we're sort of in the middle, actually. I feel like we're in a pretty good place right now. And I, you know, I'm lucky enough, and I think you guys are too with what you're doing that I if I can't, if I can't communicate and work with 20 year olds, I got no chance. Like, it's non-negotiable for me. Look, if I'm, if I'm the play by play guy up in the booth, and our play by play guy is great at connecting with everybody, and some aren't. You don't have to. You could call the game, yeah, but for me to be able to do in-game reports and do the Pre- and Post-game show, I have to be in with those guys. Now. I'm not my level of friendship, whatever that means with them versus, say, players 10 or 15 years ago, isn't the same. It's more like talking to my kids, but I have to earn their trust and their respect to some level, or I'm just some old guy that's outdated and I'm not able to do my job. And I think that you guys could both relate to that too. But yet, everywhere I go, and you know, different different associations or businesses I'm speaking to, that's an issue. It's an issue too for the 60 something year old to understand the 20 something year old and vice versa. Dan, what are you seeing with that?
Dan James 13:37
Well, I'm seeing a lack of connection. And so we're starting off business relationships or reporting relationships, whatever it is with what we want to accomplish. What do we need, as opposed to the human connection side of okay, who is this 20 year old? What? How do they learn? How do they listen? How do they connect? What's important to them? And the idea of friendship is a misnomer. That connection means you have to be best friends. No, it means that you have to at least invest something in understanding them as a human being first. And then we can transition out of trust, which is your specialty, Joel, into really having the conversation about a transaction in an interview or a business relationship, whatever that is, but without the connection piece, which is something that we have bypassed over time, it's really hard to feel like Gen X, the boomers, can connect to millennials or Gen Z.
Joel Goldberg 14:33
I think it's across the board. I mean, you know, I go back and I think about a conversation I had with longtime manager, very popular manager, Joe Maddon, who hasn't managed for a few years, but was with the Angels and then won the championship with the Cubs, really made a name for himself with the Tampa Bay Rays. And he said something, I should know the exact quotes I use it or the sound bite in some of my speeches. Not every one. But he talks about is something along the lines of, unless you build relationships and trust and have have that communication. And until you do that, you're never going to get to a point where people are comfortable exchanging those ideas, where you don't feel like you know you're ameliorating the boss. So something along those lines, like you're not comfortable saying those things to people. But once you have that, and he was just talking about within a Major League Baseball clubhouse, I think it applies to anything. And I think too, Jeff, that part of the problem. This isn't new to 2024. It's just getting worse and worse. And the differences that we all have that are made so public now and that everyone is so comfortable, whether it be behind a fake name or they don't even care anymore, is it's easy to take shots at people, and so you no one's trusting each other, and so you get into whatever be education or anything else, there's a lot of a lack of trust.
Jeff Utecht 15:52
And I think, I think what we are seeing is this ability to build trust within a team is becoming a critical skill for leaders, whether you are leading a baseball team or whether you're leading a group within your corporation, if you can't somehow take a step to build trust with the people that you lead or the people that you need to, you need to do work with, then there's no Hope of that that group working together. I had the honor this year, actually, for the first time, Dan and I got to do some work together with a client that we were talking about change management around generative AI, which is my specialty. Dan's specialty is around change manage, management inside leadership groups. And it was really fun to be able to be on the sidelines and watch Dan really talk about you know, the step number one is you can't lead change inside your organization if you don't have the trust for people to follow that the change is going to happen. And I didn't say it correctly, I'll let Dan do. He's way better at this than I am, but, but I think that's a big part of.
Dan James 17:00
Look, at the end of the day, right? It's our job as leaders, as managers, to get buy in. And I tell people, a lot of my clients, are very technically oriented, just brilliant. And I will actually tell them, no one cares. No one cares how brilliant you are, until they know you, and then that brilliance has immense value. And so if we can't, we can't build that connection and that trust, why am I going to buy in to the direction you're going to what you want to accomplish? But instant that that happens, everything changes, and now we're moving in the same direction and creating substantive change.
Joel Goldberg 17:39
Can't build a house without a foundation.
Dan James 17:41
100%.
Joel Goldberg 17:42
Right?
Jeff Utecht 17:43
And Joel, you have to see this too. And I mean, we see this. Just take this back to baseball for a second, right? You see this when managers can come in and take a team that lost 100 games last year and you make the playoffs. Like, something happened in that clubhouse. There was trust in leadership. There was trust in the approach that we were taking. And it showed, I don't know.
Joel Goldberg 18:06
Yeah, I mean, it was, I mean, without getting too deep into it, although I do think people are interested. If they're Royals fans, they are if they're not. I mean, just imagine being the worst most you know, well, at least until the White Sox came around, the worst team out there, and suddenly you're in the playoffs the next year. It helps to have one of the top three players in Major League Baseball that was 24 years old, but, but they, I think, to me, more than anything, it was their second year of a new manager. If you don't have talent, you can't win. And you both know this and and then you know this from on on the courts. I mean, if you, if you, you would rather have less talent and be coachable than all the talent and not have the desire the coach ability or all that. But you have to have talent. And so they didn't have enough of that the year before. But what they went out there and they did was they went out there and they acquired it was described to me by the manager of the Baltimore Orioles earlier in the year. He was actually talking about Adam Frazier, who was with the Mariners two years ago. Adam Frazier is not a superstar, but he's the kind of guy that every manager wants on his team. And what Brandon Hyde, the manager of the Baltimore Orioles told me at Camden Yards was that they went out there and they got some babysitters for the room. That doesn't mean that the that the kids, so to speak, the 20 year old, let's here's a great, you know, generational thing. That doesn't mean that the Gen Z players were misbehaving. It means they didn't quite know how to get to where they needed to go yet, and they brought in a bunch of millennials that had been there and done that and still had a lot to give, but also knew the right way to lead and to go about it, and there was this incredible cohesiveness. So they didn't need to go out there and sign superstars. They went out there and signed guys that could play every single day, that were going to affect the room, and with the snap of a finger from spring training on, it changed the chemistry. I don't know, from a sports standpoint, what you think about, Dan, in terms of chemistry? I believe in it and, and, I guess it's like culture in a business, right? You can't just put the kegerator in the in the company kitchen and, and, and, and have a happy hour and expect everybody to get it. It takes more than that.
Dan James 20:13
Well, in I think what you're describing out of exceptional managing is creating trust and clarity. And we talk about role players in sports all the time, but we don't really talk about it. We don't talk about roles right in the millennial player who's is potentially on the back end, but leading a team and create an environment where there's clarity and trust. Well, that means that every time they go on the field, they believe in what they're doing. They know what their job is, and whether it's business sports, whatever it is, creating that culture of clarity and trust. Well, now I don't need as much talent, because players know what they're doing. People on your team in corporate America know what they're doing, and that kind of clarity is a winning recipe.
Joel Goldberg 21:00
I just, I have this image in my head, and I can't remember. I think it was from early in the playoffs? I can't remember now. Where they had the Royals had pulled their center fielder because they liked the batting matchup. Must have been a left hander on the mound, and the center fielders left handed so they brought in a right handed batter, and then he could have been sulking. You know, 25-26 years old, all these other quote unquote, role player, millennial role players that will say, the Adam Fraziers of the world, that were regularly being pulled from games or not starting, and never complaining about it and going about it like you would think that they were starting every single moment. I know this stuff sound this stuff sounds logical. It's a lot easier said than done. And when he got pulled, and the guy that pinch hit for him gets a big hit. It wasn't like the ninth inning. There was still a lot of game left, and he was the first one on the top step cheering. And I thought that that that's it right there. It's that cliche we use over and over again of everybody pulling on the same rope. It's just harder to do. So I want to pivot to, I think, one of the other big stories of the year, and certainly it's Jeff's specialty, or one of his many. But I think we, we Dan can, can speak on this too. This is not the year that AI was invented. It's like, it's like, it's like medicine, where suddenly people say, Well, wait a minute, this thing is brand new. No, it's been tested for 20 years or 30 years, but there was something about 2024, Jeff, where everyone suddenly learned more or thought they were learning more or paid more attention to AI. For me, it came with this. I've got a very good friend here in town, a guy by the name of Alan Landever, who's very tech savvy. As a matter of fact, he just started his own consultancy involving AI and school systems. I might need to connect you guys. And he's doing the advising all over Kansas, helping these districts create their own chat bots and making everything more efficient. And he was born to do this type of stuff. And I remember him being over here in my basement one night, and we got some sports or whatever on, and, you know, having a whiskey as we might. And he starts telling me about ChatGPT. And I'm like, Oh, it's another one of your things, whatever. Little did, I think that, you know, later in the year, everybody would know the words ChatGPT, the way we used to not know Google, and then we did. Let's Google something, right? It suddenly becomes a verb. It becomes a way of life. Now you look on your iPhone, if you have iPhones, and it's integrating in with Apple intelligence. What what changed in 2024? Because it's not like this was new.
Jeff Utecht 23:28
Yeah, I think it was definitely the coming out year. I mean, I think if you look back at 2024 this will probably be the year where, you know, it will be remembered as the year that generative AI really took off. I mean, ChatGPT has been out for two years. Now, to your point, it's not new, and AI itself is not new, but generative AI is about two years old, but this is a year that I think other heavy hitters got involved. We saw Google really step up their game, Microsoft really stepped up their game, and that brought a lot of hype to what generative AI could do. But we also started to get to an it started getting to, I would say maturity, that people could start seeing what you could do with it. And I think that was the big breakthrough for 2024 is it wasn't just being able to go to it, you know, write some write a text prompt, and it gave you some text back. That we started getting into this idea that what it can do with images, what it can do with video, I think is a big part some people have probably seen already. Dan and I are watching football last weekend, and Coca Cola has all AI created ads right now running for the holidays that were all generated 100% generated by AI. And they're going to want to push back for it, as you usually are when you're first out. But we're going to see this technology do a lot of different things. It's already being implemented. My the crazy thing for me is how fast the implementation is in places that we don't even understand. I went to the dentist the other day, get this. Joel, I went to the dentist the other day. They took a 3d scan in my mouth because I needed to have a cavity filled. And then AI, custom 3d printed a filling for my tooth. Custom printed the filling for my tooth that perfectly fit where the doctor had to go in and drill out the cavity. I mean, and it's just little thing, like, we don't think of you're going to be a dentist next year. You need to understand how AI and CAD programming work, right? This is where, where this is where this is headed, and it's going in all kinds of of directions, and it's going to have so so much implement implications, that really what we're what we're looking at, when you boil it down, is, is it's another transitional technology. And transitional technologies come along about every 20 years. The last one was the internet. Before that, it was the personal computer. You can go back in time and see there's a technology that it doesn't disrupt one little thing. It disrupts the, you know, entire societies. And that's where we are right now with generative AI, we're going through that transition. It's going to be a couple years of transition, which is why I think the three of us, you know, back to where we started, are going to have a lot of work coming. I mean, Dan and I have already collaborated on this. How do you lead change in the world of generative AI, within your department, your team, your business, whatever that looks like. Because everybody's trying to figure out, okay? How do you take a transitional technology and embed it into what we do? And we probably were doing the same thing in 2000 with the internet and somebody was doing this when they said, Hey, we're going to put a computer on everybody's desk back in 1979 right? So, but that's just kind of where we're at. It'll be it'll be fun. We're just in the beginning.
Dan James 26:31
I think it's really interesting, too. In speaking to to the fact that Jeff and I got to work together to watch how accessible a guy like Jeff can make ChatGPT and generative AI, and so I will, I will speak very freely to being an absolute ignorant fool as it related to ChatGPT before we work together, and now I'm using it in my business almost every day.
Jeff Utecht 26:54
He actually wrote the contract to hire me to do the work with him using ChatGPT.
Dan James 26:58
That's really good. And I tried, I tried to get them not to pay him, but ChatGPT said, No, you have to pay him.
Joel Goldberg 27:06
Dan, stop being so cheap. Pay the poor guy.
Dan James 27:09
It's so painful. But the idea is, even for a Gen Xer like me who had no exposure working with an expert like Jeff, this new trans transitional technology becomes accessible to everybody. And that's where that change is really going to gain momentum is people are going to realize it isn't this scary thing. It actually is a tool that can be learned and implemented almost immediately.
Joel Goldberg 27:35
You know, I think the most important thing that I like to share with people, and I'm still in the early stages, I'm open minded to all of it. I think for me, it's a matter of spending more time just going down the rabbit hole and seeing what does it do. What I mean for me personally, at this point, I'm probably using it more as a much higher level, Advanced Google and I know that there's so much more that it can do, but when I hear the pushback and I get it. Change is hard. Change is always hard. You'll hear people say, well, in fill in the blank city. We're so slow. It's always the status quo that's almost every city right like here in Kansas City, they built the most beautiful airport. It's one of the nicest airports in the country, certainly for it to be this size, Jeff, you've been through it. There's a funny story, by the way, I was talking to an umpire last year who was saying, Oh man, your Airport's amazing. Now they fly commercial. He goes, but I gotta admit, earlier in the year, I was meeting my crew. I'd been on vacation. I had like, a 6am or 5am flight out of Denver to get to Kansas City, and I landed. I got off the plane. I'm still half awake. I walk out, I'm like, oh my god, I went to the wrong city. Because he forgot that there was, the airport. was that bad. My point to all that, along with a kind of a fun story, is that there was so much pushback from a lot of people on that airport. Well, wait, but I'm not gonna be able to park as close. Oh, it's not gonna be as convenient. And we're not wired to think what the greater good, what it can do, until we experience it. And so I think that I would encourage everybody listening. If you're slow on the AI, just start going down the rabbit hole and exploring. Because if you if you're of the belief, and I want to know your opinion on this, Dan, and then from you know, a lot of the groups you're consulting with, and some of these bigger companies, if you're of the belief, well, that's not for me, or that's cheating, or that's whatever it might be, or take on the education standpoint. Jeff, the professor that says, Nope, we're not going to allow it. I think you're missing the boat. I think that you're missing the opportunity to be handed a really powerful, effective tool and say, Wait a minute. You know what? I'm going to take that one out of my toolbox. I don't want to use that. I'm going to make it harder on myself. And whether you're right or wrong on that, I think we're going to get left behind if we don't. What do you see?
Dan James 29:41
Well, I think from a from a change standpoint, I would raise up to about 50,000 feet and say that the folks who are real hesitant to embrace generative AI were hesitant in other changes as well. And so this is a more of a foundational issue that folks have to embrace. The fact that treading water is falling behind in this economy, in this business environment, or in sport, right? And we know that the advances in sports science over the years have fundamentally changed performance just period. Can you imagine a coach saying, You know what, I don't want to do analytics, I don't want to do biomechanical breakdowns. It just doesn't make sense. And so this is something in which we say, Look, this is coming. How you choose to embrace the changes up to you, but you can't stem the flow that this is coming.
Joel Goldberg 30:31
It drives me nuts when, and this would be in any market too, when I hear, Oh, we got dogs barking. Can't, can't clean that up. It drives me nuts when I hear old ball players that are going to say, well, back when we were playing, we didn't need any of that kind of stuff. Well, guess what, if you had it, you would have been better. I mean, hit ball, do this. Yes, there are elements. I mean, when I hear George Brett say, Try easier, he's right. No one should, should question that George Brett, or anyone like that that has the credentials, but I would argue they would have been stronger and even better. Now we could argue from a sports standpoint, or do guys work out too much, or guys, you know, too too skinny or too cut to lead to injury, there's all that. But the other side of that, you talk about the medical side and all the data that they have now. They know when these guys need a break, they can measure all of that stuff. They have instant feedback and data. And here's the other piece too. This is back to the generational Jeff. And I'm just talking from a sports standpoint, but I think it's true for any company. If you're a young guy coming into a company or onto a team and you see that your company or your team doesn't have what everybody else has. You're not going to stay very long. I mean, you got to keep up with with everybody, right?
Jeff Utecht 31:45
Oh, I think that's a, I think that's a big part of it. I mean, I can't imagine, you know, in baseball, going and you have, you know, deciding between two different organizations. And one organization says, we have all the state of the art stuff to to help you be better, and the other organization says, Well, we still have a T that you can hit into a net, right? And not that there's anything wrong with the T, it's a fundamental skill. But there's a lot of other things you can do as well. And I think that's, that's where we are with this. I think number one to remember, it's just a tool. It's just a tool to have in your tool belt. It's going to do some incredible things. It's not there's nothing to I mean, don't be scared of it. Understand how to use it. I think that's a big part of it. Where we are, right? Now is going through the learning curve of how to use a new tool, but it is. It is going to impact us all in some way. At some point, whether that is the next, you know, washing machine you buy is going to have generative AI in it, or much like they already do in tennis, we're going to be able to replay every foul ball down the line and know exactly where it hit, right like it's going to. It's gonna, it's gonna impact us all in multiple different ways.
Joel Goldberg 32:43
I muted myself as I was telling the dogs to knock it off. They just decided down here in the basement, I'm the only one home today that they were gonna have a little, a little wrestling match. So the but then again, you know, the the beauties of of the world that we live in. We expect all this. That was one of the benefits, I guess, of the pandemic. Last thought before I get to the baseball themed questions end of year theme on that, I don't, I still don't know when we say, okay, we're, we're past the pandemic. I mean, I think we are now, or when are we past what we learned from it, how it changed us. Like I think we're, I think we're settling in now, and I don't, I'm not saying that that happened in 2024 but I think it was more solidified in 2024 when I go and I I walk into offices and talk to companies, whether I'm speaking or networking or whatever, you know it's it's different in every place, but there's a certainly a lot more of a push to get back into the office. However, Dan, I was speaking to a company yesterday, at least the day before we were recording this, a construction company, smaller, smaller office, but brand new office, and they, they are getting their people back in on a regular basis, but they are making it a fun place to be, and not just again, the kegerator or yes, they have the the they built a gym and a basketball court. It's not just that, it's that they are now opening up that basketball court at nights for the families to use for their kids teams and to have family events, and their theater, which is which I spoke in yesterday, can now be used for a movie night. And they're they're wanting people that this company gives sabbatical every five years to travel around the world for five weeks. And they encourage them so it's it was really interesting to me to hear that they're not the only ones. But I think we are at a point now that we're past the pandemic where and you speak so often about culture and impact, where a lot of companies have figured out how to add on to that culture, or how to redefine it, and others are still struggling with it and and figuring out how to how to meet their people, maybe where they're at. How much has that changed in 2024?
Dan James 34:55
I think you've seen the major swings. So you saw that the major. Doing during the pandemic, where we were just shut down. So everybody's at home, stuck there, working, trying to, trying to just get through it. And then the next swing is everybody's out, working from home, moving out of cities. And so we're now in this settling period, and coming out of the pandemic, as the swings are over and we're settling you're seeing companies go into that connection culture, valuing their employees as people, in trying to create an environment where growth and development, valuing family, prioritizing family, becomes a regular thing and and no culture. I tell people when I do culture work, I'm not going to tell you what your culture is. That's just not going to happen. However, right? I'm going to help you live it. And these companies are really starting to live a culture as they settle in that values the employee and their actual life.
Joel Goldberg 34:55
That's kind of across the board, isn't it, Jeff? I mean, we live in a world, you know, we all grew up at a time where you were told that you stay in this job for X amount of years, and we didn't think twice about it. That's what you did. And now I think we're living in a world where retention, if you could figure out the retention piece that certainly helps with the culture, that certainly helps with everything. I'll use another sports analogy here, because I know it, it upsets many of us sports fans. But what's even the point with college sports right now? You don't know who's on your team and whoever's there this year will be somewhere else next year. And by the way, they might have a sixth or seventh year. And there's no, there's no identity to to any of this at all. And I think that's a little representative of what goes on with a lot of companies. If you're a Gen Z or a millennial, if you don't like it, you're going to pick up and go somewhere else.
Jeff Utecht 36:36
And I think that's, there's, I think there's two parts to this. I think you're, you're you're right. We're starting to settle, you know, coming out of the pandemic. But I think inside of that, I will go back to this idea, because this is the work I do with generational stuff. Is every generation has a different understanding of what that life should be. And I think we're we the what we saw coming out of the pandemic was a transition of working from what I would consider are silent and Boomer generations, where you go to work every day, five days a week, and you just do your work, right? Your job is. And the motto that I always say that baby boomers have is you show up. You show up every day. You get your work done, you shut up about it, and you go home and go live your life, right? And you save for tomorrow. The big thing about that generation, as you say, for tomorrow, Gen Xers. That's our generation. The three of us here on this. We are the generation that's actually pushing the work from home movement, because we went when we saw that we got home, went during the pandemic. We kind of like this idea. And culturally, overarching, and this isn't for everybody that's a Gen Xer, but we like to work alone. And there's a lot of reasons I won't go into in this in today's episode on why that is, but we like to work alone. So for us staying at home, we are the generation that is trying to stay at home with our families and our dogs and having to not pay childcare. Because, you know, I can have a one, one of the workers can be at home while also watching students or watching your children, the you then have these next two generations to your point. Millennials give us this idea. Millennials are the generation that gave us the idea of work life balance, and they are now pushing that into corporate work. And that's what we're seeing, I think, in these, in some of these cultural changes that you're talking about, and you're seeing Joel is you have now remember, there are 40% of the workforce are millennials. If you add Gen Z to that, they're about 53% those two generations are about 50. So they make over half of the workforce. Companies are going to have to change their culture to the employees that they have and the employees they need to attract. And part of that is going to understand this idea of work life balance is different. It's going to mean having a keg in the corner and opening up for family nights after work is done, or maybe the office is open 24 hours a day, because people are going to come and go freely because they want to live and work at the same time. And what we're seeing is inside. We're seeing the generational cultures now starting to, once again, transform the way work it's done. And it happens every single time as we go through these transition it happens. But we're just seeing this. I think coming out of the pandemic gave us kind of a moment in time for that transition to really see what's happening now. And we are seeing more companies here in Seattle. I mean, we're one of the last cities to bring workers back, but we're seeing like Amazon is making everybody go back five days a week, and you're starting to see some of that struggle of you know, you have a boomer leading a company saying, I want everybody in five days a week, eight hours a day, and you have these younger generations saying, I don't want that. I want my work, and I want my sabbatical, and I want to live and work at the same time. And we're going to be going through this. We've got a couple more years of this cultural transition, but, but you're going to see this continue to play out, and you can almost look at it through a generational lens.
Joel Goldberg 39:56
And I think come 2000 say, 26 27, 28 Right? We're going to look at that and not recognize what 2019 was.
Jeff Utecht 40:03
Exactly. Nope.
Joel Goldberg 40:05
Which is fascinating. We're at an inflection point the pendulum, just like it does for elections, just like everything else, it swings wildly. And eventually, as Dan talked about, we're going to settle. Some of that settling is happening. Some of it is not there yet. Some of it is going to still take some time. As as AI becomes a regular part of of how we do things. And so it's, I guess every year is fascinating. It feels like we're, we're at an inflection point right now. Okay, let's wrap up with the end of the year themed baseball themed end of the year questions. However, I want to say that, because you guys have answered these before, but let's talk specifically. In 2024 Dan, how about a home run?
Dan James 40:42
Well, I mean, my home run is fairly obvious. It happened in July when I beat cancer and but the other part of the home run as I was rounding the bases, I wasn't alone, and the real home run was finding out that I have possibly the best village a man could ask for that went on that trod around the bases with me and and so my home run is, is creating that, that concept of, of, I love my job, I love what I do, but I really love my people.
Joel Goldberg 41:11
Yeah, I should have had Jeff go first, because you can't top that, obviously, nor should, nor should you. But how about a home run for you? And that home run could also include seeing Dan and being part of his village have the incredible win that he had.
Jeff Utecht 41:25
Yeah, I mean, that was a that was a huge win for our village here. Dan and I got to watch a lot of baseball together during chemo. So we got to spend a lot of time together going through that journey for sure, and so excited on the outcome that our village was able to get with, with them getting better, and now, coming back from Tahiti, He even looks tan in the whole thing. So it's been good. But you know, outside of that, I think a big I think a home run for me this year was just the ability to support so many different organizations with understanding generative AI. I went from in 2023 was my first time ever to Kansas City, and I've been back eight times this year supporting districts throughout the Greater Kansas City area, everything from in I was an Independent School District Missouri, Piper School District on the Kansas side, and many in between, and that's just one stop in the places that I've done. So I think just for me, it's an honor to serve it's an honor to support others. And just what an incredible year, as I reflect back on the opportunities I had to support so many, and I mean, and being able to work alongside Dan, with our with this corporation that that hired us, coming around change management was a, was a huge part of that as well. To watch him watch a professional at work. You know, it's like Joel, like, when you go to the ball, like to watch actual professionals do their job. You know? You just sit back in awe, and you think you're a professional, until you see a professional, and then you're like, aw man.
Joel Goldberg 43:01
That's why I like to go see other broadcasters.
Jeff Utecht 43:04
You get to see people in their element. It's good.
Joel Goldberg 43:06
Oh, that's, this is how you do it. Well, maybe I've been doing it wrong.
Dan James 43:10
I'm going to interrupt and just say that, that I felt the exact same way on the other side. As Jeff had had people just glossing through generative AI and starting to own it and asking questions, and he's leading them through that. And I just sat back and said, Oh, that's how you do, that's how you do it.
Joel Goldberg 43:26
Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. And as much as I would love to give Jeff crap Oh, you came to Kansas City and you didn't. We tried to connect. We tried to connect. It didn't work. So I'm really the bad guy, because you bought sushi in Seattle, and what have I done? I haven't even bought you any barbecue yet, but.
Speaker 1 43:33
Well, I keep coming on non-game days. Or you're out of town, that's the problem. We'll make it happen.
Joel Goldberg 43:46
We'll make that happen. Okay, how about just for for me, I mean, obviously covering a winner was great this year. I can't really control that. But book two is coming out next month, and so.
Jeff Utecht 43:58
Hey, congrats on that.
Joel Goldberg 43:59
That is a project that has taken longer than I wanted it to, in part, just because it's hard during a baseball season.
Jeff Utecht 44:05
What's this book about? Give us a little snack.
Joel Goldberg 44:07
Similar theme to what you guys got for me, Small Ball, Big Results. This one's called Small Ball, Big Dreams. And it's, to me, it's, I mean, we're all dreamers in some form or another, in and out of baseball, and just, just cool, amazing, heartwarming, at times, gut wrenching stories. And so very excited about that that comes out in January. And so that's.
Jeff Utecht 44:29
Congrats, Joel.
Joel Goldberg 44:30
I think that's the big one. I shouldn't I should wait until it's out. Anyway, we're going to wrap it up with two more questions, a swing and a miss, or just something that you learned from in 2024 Dan.
Dan James 44:42
I think that I learned the hard way that keeping up with your brand is critical, and I had a situation in which I was being referred, and I haven't looked at my website in five years. I haven't needed to, but the referral was to my website. Is completely dated and doesn't represent what I'm doing now. And so the swing and the miss is, gosh, I've been able just to do it on referrals and get automatic contracts, and have forgotten the responsibility on the technology end to make sure that that my website, my social media, whatever it is, a reflection of what I'm actually doing now. And I take that much more seriously now that I've had that experience.
Joel Goldberg 45:22
Jeff, how about you?
Jeff Utecht 45:26
Man, I don't know a swing and a miss. I think it's just in trying to think that, even as somebody whose job it is to try and keep up with generative AI, that you could do it without having to sacrifice other parts of your life, your family, that idea of work life balance that I hate Millennials for, that we all try to achieve now. I mean, this stuff is moving so fast, just that, giving yourself permission, that it's okay, that you don't know it all, I struggle with that as part of my own just just inner workings as a human. And it caught up to me a couple times this year where I just was feeling overwhelmed, like no matter what I was learning, it wasn't enough. And so I think a big swing and a miss for me is just constantly that reflective mindset of understanding that work is work, but you know, family and priorities are also worth investing in as well.
Joel Goldberg 46:24
I'll double down on that as mine as well, of and maybe it'll go on for the rest of time, of figuring out not just the work life balance, but the just the happy medium on everything.
Jeff Utecht 46:35
Yeah
Joel Goldberg 46:35
Trying to understand, start to understand it a little better this year, actually, that that this does not need to be all or none. And I'm wired that way, you know, either all in or you're all out, and it's like, no, wait a minute. You know, there's plenty of gray that you can win in, win on. That's not a 2024 thing. So much is just an everyday thing for me. Okay, the wrap up question. I mean, I usually do four final questions around in the bases, and we do the small ball. But you guys have told me about your small ball in the past, by the way, if you want to go back and listen to the episodes with Jeff and Dan, they happened this year. And I also want to let everybody know websites, if you want to learn more about them, Dan is mystorynineteen.com. Jeff's is jeffutecht.com. We'll put the spelling in the in the show notes, or it's already his name's there anyway, but it doesn't look the way it sounds. But I'm just glad that I figured out how to say it, U, T, E, C, H T, Jeff, Utecht.com. One thing you're looking forward to, personal, professional, whatever it is, in 2025. Jeff, I'll start with you.
Jeff Utecht 47:37
Yeah. Well, I think one thing I'm looking forward to is I'm excited. I think Dan and I have come together and built something around change management with generative AI inside corporations. That is something that is scalable. We were really focused on that, that we knew if we could do this right, there might be some lead way there. And so we're, I'm excited, and I know Dan is too of trying to just see where that goes inside, inside, some work that we're doing. And then on, on top of that, just being playful. And Dan, Dan and I talk about this a lot in our trainings, is you just have to be playful and and sometimes you just take the base hit, and if the third baseman's playing back, you lay down a bunt, you know. You just, you take it when it when it's at you. And sometimes you don't have to chase it all the time. You take what, what's given to you. And I think that is something that I'm just looking forward to, is, as I enter 2025 is just being more reflective, and take, take what's given to me.
Joel Goldberg 48:31
I love all that. And you know, going back to your college baseball days and like, lay that bunt down, it's a great piece of advice, though, too. We don't need to hit home runs every single time. Dan, how about you in 2025?
Dan James 48:42
I'm really looking forward to learning, and I think my experience in working with Jeff, we're all kind of experts and good at what we do, and yet I get to steal from super talented people. When I say steal, I mean literally. I'm gonna steal their ideas, and I'm not gonna give them credit. I just don't care. But I love, I love working with people who we push each other to be better. And in 2025 I want to do more work with Jeff and others who just put us each in a position to become better at our craft, to even potentially become better people. And for me, if I get to do that in my job, how lucky am I, and so I'm really looking forward to that.
Joel Goldberg 49:24
Yeah, love all of that, and I'm excited for for that to happen for both of you. I'll just give you two light hearted ones to end it on a on a fun note. One, I'm looking forward to hanging out in, I don't know is it northern Minnesota, Central Minnesota, whatever it is, somewhere north of Minneapolis, when the when the Royals are at the Twins at the invitation of Dan and his lake home up there, and hopefully Jeff's there too, and just chilling out on an off day before a weekend game. I'll invite you guys back for the game if you want, but you may not want to leave your place. So I'm very much looking forward to that getaway. Um. Which just sounds incredible and peaceful. You've described all of it to me. It reminds me of where I started in television in northern Wisconsin. And the other piece, I am not breaking out a tennis career, Dan, but I'm just very I haven't talked about this yet, but I'm very happy to say that within the last month, I have joined the pickleball craze.
Jeff Utecht 50:19
Hey, all right!
Joel Goldberg 50:21
I've never played it before, and I had a guest on great guy by the name of Larry Lewis Jr, who was a college football player back in his day. He's younger than us, but, and the one thing that he loves to do now athletically is play pickleball six to seven days a week. So he made me promise, when my baseball season ended, well, I was interested, and he made me promise to to follow up when baseball season ended. So he brings me over to this place here in Kansas City, which is like one of the capitals of the pickleball world, apparently. But I think everybody says that. And the guy that he introduced me to, that he hooked me up with for to do some lessons, is a former tennis pro that played at Wimbledon and US Open and all this stuff. And I'm like, now I'm learning from him. I'm and he like, he's on the he's like, in the top 10 in the world for 50 and over. I'm not going to become that, by the way, but I'm totally excited about this new activity that everybody that plays gets, and everybody that doesn't play is like, oh my gosh, I don't want to hear about this damn thing anymore.
Jeff Utecht 51:17
Yeah!
Joel Goldberg 51:18
Are you guys doing that too or no?
Jeff Utecht 51:20
I've dabbled in the pickleball, I will say being here from, you know, the home of pickleball, here in Seattle. You know, there's a, we're almost to the point there's a court on every corner. Yeah, it's between Starbucks and pickleball courts around here these days. So.
Joel Goldberg 51:33
You don't need anything else.
Jeff Utecht 51:35
Yeah, I don't need anything else. That's it. But yeah, yeah, I enjoy playing. I will not play against Dan because Dan probably has never picked up a pickleball so he'd still kick my butt. So.
Joel Goldberg 51:44
Well, that's what happens when you're at Dan's level.
Jeff Utecht 51:46
Yeah, that's right.
Joel Goldberg 51:46
In terms of tennis abilities. And so anyway, that's just a silly little thing that I'm looking forward to. And by the way, I will probably extend my my run of going to Seattle, hopefully seeing both of you and never stepping foot in the Starbucks.
Jeff Utecht 52:02
You can make that happen. That's an easy one.
Joel Goldberg 52:04
I just, there are too many other good coffee shops.
Jeff Utecht 52:05
That's so true. Too many other good places.
Joel Goldberg 52:08
I see too many players walk across the street or walk an extra couple blocks to get to Starbucks. I'm like, but there's this little Anyway, guys, I appreciate you both so much. It's and I'm not, you know, I hope you know I'm not BSing you on this, but among the many highlights of 2024 meeting both of you and having this rapport, this ability to to have enlightening conversations, but keep them, keep them light at the same time, makes me feel like I've known the two of you for a very long time. And I'm grateful for both of you, including me on a little bit of your fun and for spending time on the podcast and beyond. So Happy New Year to both of you, and thanks so much for doing this.
Jeff Utecht 52:49
Thanks, Joel.
Dan James 52:50
Thank you. Joel, we appreciate you.