Bonnie Hagemann: Empowering Women and Leaders with Resilience

When it comes to helping organizations cultivate a championship state of mind, no two concepts are quite as critical to success as culture and leadership. For better or for worse (but hopefully for better), one leader can make a tremendous impact on an entire organization. They set the tone for the company and create long-lasting ripple effects. As a motivational speaker, my keynotes include firsthand accounts of leadership and culture in practice on the baseball diamond, and the same is true in the business world too.

So what happens when an entire team of leaders commits to optimizing culture with a single, aligned vision? An incredibly powerful transformation occurs.

culture and leadership

Without giving too much away, one recent episode of my podcast Rounding the Bases took a closer look at what some of the savviest leaders are doing to optimize performance. Because in every thriving business, the product may be its heart but the company's culture is its soul. Done right, it can light the fire that sets mediocre companies apart from the stuff of legends. And my guest was a woman who doesn't just know culture, she lives and breathes it...into her company and those of her clients.

Her name is Bonnie Hagemann of EDA, Inc., the world class firm at the forefront of workplace equality. She may be the Chief Executive, but don't call her the boss. She's a leader whose deep expertise is changing the way the world does business from the top down. By amplifying the strengths they didn't know they had, she's setting blue chip culture ablaze and laying the groundwork for the workplace of tomorrow.

SINGLE: Bee Supportive

Creating the right type of environment can be the difference between a company that thrives and a company that merely survives. "I'm a beekeeper," Bonnie explained, "and I set up my entire nine acres to really be conducive for my bees." The same way her colony needs orchards, berries and space to produce, employees need a place that values - prioritizes, even - infrastructure, resources and autonomy for its employees to perform. In short, a culture of support. As for leadership, its charge is to create the type of environment that promotes this. "It's a great analogy," she said, "and if you don't get this right, you're not going to make it."

DOUBLE: Purpose Over Profits

Culture and leadership may come from the top, but make no mistake, the younger workforce has a voice and is intent on making it heard. Gone are the days when profitability was the singular focus of doing business. They've been replaced with a next generation of workers with a set of priorities that has never been seen before. Sure, money is nice, but a genuine sense of purpose is better. And it's setting a new bar for workplace standards that's forcing unprecedented change from the ground up.

TRIPLE: The Great Regression

Among the many things the pandemic took from us, hard-earned progress towards gender equality belongs near the top. According to a United Nations study, prior to Covid, the United States workforce was 115 years away from gender equality. In the post-Covid world, we're now more than 200 years away. It illustrates the harsh reality that so many women - who are oftentimes primary caretakers - had to face as the world grappled to navigate those unprecedented times. "We have to work together on that," Bonnie - an unintentional gender advocate - said. And even though she hasn't personally experienced the same depth of career discrimination as so many of her colleagues, she has come to understand it. And in turn, become deeply passionate about advancing women everywhere.

HOME RUN: Game Ready

Bad days won't get you anywhere. Of course we all have them, we're only human after all. But the great differentiator is how we deal with them. On those sub-par days, some will give half of their effort and rationalize the rest. True A-teamers will show up with their game face on and find a way to excel, despite their world crumbling around them. "It's a heart issue," Bonnie said. "It's like the saying when I was growing up in Oklahoma. You can count how many seeds are in a bushel but you can't count how many bushels are in a seed." And its that number of bushels that sets the good apart from the great.

Listen to the full interview here or tune in to Rounding the Bases every Monday and Thursday, available wherever you get your podcasts.

Learn More About Culture and Leadership From Joel

Book Joel Goldberg for your next corporate event. He draws on over 25 years of experience as a sports broadcaster. In addition, he brings unique perspectives and lessons learned from some of the world's most successful organizations. Whatever your profession, Joel is the keynote speaker who can help your team achieve a championship state of mind.

Full Transcript

Joel Goldberg 0:00

Welcome to another edition of rounding the basis presented by community America credit union. My name is Joel Goldberg and we've got an excellent Podcast coming up for you really spectacular guests quick shout out to my friends at Chief of Staff Kansas City. If you're looking for a job, if you're looking to hire someone, they're the ones to reach out to what I love about them, whether it's locally or nationally is they just want to take care of people. That's what this is all about. It's all about people. And I've heard them say over and over again from the topic, Casey Wright, who's been a guest on this show, all the way down, that they just want to help people whether that's finding them that job or just being a resource and putting them in touch with the right people. So I hope you'll check them out. If you're interested in Chief of Staff kc.com When it comes to people understanding them and culture, my guest today knows that as well as anyone and I've been excited for the introduction to my guest today which came from a friend and someone over the years that I met in my network, retired brigadier general Dave Komar, who actually works for this woman. Now, in every thriving business the product may be it's heart, but the company's culture is its soul. I mean, that right there as my language I've done right, it can light the fire that sets mediocre companies apart from the stuff of legends. Today's guest is a woman who doesn't just know culture, she lives and breathes it into her company and those of her clients. Her name is Bonnie Hagemann of EDA Inc, the world class firm at the forefront of workplace equality. She may be the chief executive but don't call her the boss. She's a leader whose deep expertise is changing the way the world does business from the top down. By amplifying the strengths. they didn't know they had, she's setting blue chip culture ablaze and laying the groundwork for the workplace of tomorrow. With that said, we bring in to the podcast right now rounding the bases, my friend Bonnie Hagemann. I say friend, because I think we kind of got to know each other back in well, I know it was April, because it was like the day before opening day and I was frazzled and all over the place, a sign of what was to come in the months ahead, Bonnie, how are you?

Bonnie Hagemann 2:29

I'm great. Thank you for having me on the program, Joel. And I agree, we're friends, we hit it off from the first conversation, we both care about culture and had lots to say about that. So I completely agree with the term.

Joel Goldberg 2:42

Well, I love that because you know, as you and I are recording here right now in June, it means I've only known you a few months. But we we've spoken a number of times I mentioned Dave Komar, who, who works for you now and he is a spectacular leader. And just a quick plug for him. Anybody that's listening or watching and if you want to connect with Dave on LinkedIn or check him out, it's definitely a worthwhile follow. And I always feel that way about so many of our leaders in the military because they've been in the heart of all of it. But let's, let's talk about that. I mean, culture is I send it you live and breathe it. Some do. Some don't. I think we all would like to we all need to, at what point in your illustrious career did it? Did it really set into you that culture matters?

Bonnie Hagemann 3:29

Well, we do in my organization, what we do, historically, is executive development. So we work at the top of the house medium to large companies, helping them become better leaders. And we also recently have added human capital technology to that so that we can help sort of change the culture. We equip companies to change the culture. But through all that process, you know, 40 years of working our company, not me personally, but 40 years of the company working at the top of the half, we see how crucial it is that the environment is conducive. And so you know, Joel, I probably told you already, but you know, I'm a beekeeper. And one of the things I have nine acres, and I set up my entire nine acres to really be very conducive for my bees, I have an orchard, I have berries, you know, I have all this stuff so that they can produce. And, you know, I think that's a great analogy of, you know, in a company, you need to have a conducive environment, and it's the leaders job to make it so, you know, I think just from that work, it's easy to see how important culture is probably in the last couple of years, you know, has it become like almost, if you don't get this right, you're not going to make it.

Joel Goldberg 4:51

So, do you have any thought of why that has come to this point? I mean, in to me in many ways, it should have always Been there? I don't think it's as simple as the pandemic, although I think that that heightened everybody's awareness and their competitiveness, and how do we have an edge, but but then again, everybody always was looking for an edge. So what's changed?

Bonnie Hagemann 5:14

Well, I agree, I don't think it was just the pandemic, I think a lot of it has to do with this generation, you know, the generational changes the young people who are changing the culture of work, at least in the US from the bottom up. And, you know, they are insisting now that the company has a purpose, that means something beyond just making money, you know, we, we somehow get into this path of companies, we're just here to make money and you make more money, you're quarter over quarter, or you're a failure. And that's impossible. It's impossible to always be going up. It's just not even, you know, you can't do it. And so, the young people are like, you know, first of all, money is not everything to us. And if you don't have a purpose, then we are really not that interested. And then if you do have a purpose, can I get my heart wrapped around it? And do I like, you know, the environment in which I'm working? Do I feel like I'm a part of the story. And so I think it's the young people to be honest,

Joel Goldberg 6:21

which is interesting. I know, you and I talked about that when we went for coffee, because neither you nor me, are the young people anymore. I don't say that in an insulting way. I'm happy. You know, we've got kids that are the young people at this point, I'm happy with where I'm at. But I'm also inspired by what they're doing. It is so easy. And I think this is generational, and it's gone on since the beginning of time, it's so easy to say, well, back when we were young, or back when well used to be? Well, it's not supposed to be what it used to be, everything is supposed to evolve it, whether it's supposed to or not, it just does. And so I find it really interesting to understand, I don't agree with all that, by the way. But I do think it's interesting, because everything that that I talk with my guests about on this podcast, or I hear from people in my network, or when I when I go to do presentations, really is reflected in the same sort of mindset of the younger Royals players, or the younger athletes that I deal with that are that who are different in 2022, than the ones that were coming in, even in 2008 or 2010, you could just see the change that doesn't that fuel you a little bit?

Bonnie Hagemann 7:32

Yes, it's exciting to say, you know, there's a lot of passion, which we love that part, you know, thank you for bringing all your heart to this, we love it. But there's also a little bit of a caution that, you know, I want to give to the young people, which is, please bring all of that and insist that we change because we need to, but at the same time, remember that we have to be in business. And you know, where we're seeing the salaries get pushed up and up, up, up, and then we have you know, and we need to change for purpose and culture and all of that, you know, all of that has an expense to it. So if we're, if we're going to give you more benefits, which a lot of companies are doing, you know, there's an expense to that, if we're going to pay these higher salaries, then we can't hire as many people. So you know, just the caution is that there's not unlimited supply of funds here. We in order to be able to provide what you want, we have to be able to financially do that.

Joel Goldberg 8:32

So I want to talk a little bit about your background. And if I remember correctly, I think you took over a CEO somewhere around 2007 ish, I believe. Right. So right around the time I got here in 2008. But it is you mentioned a company that's been around for much longer. Tell me about that path of getting to EDA, how did you end up getting there? And now it's been you know, a long run for you obviously a place that you're very happy.

Bonnie Hagemann 9:02

Yes, I you know, it's one of those things I like to start unlike some of my talks. I know you give speeches, Joel and I have to and I sometimes I started with Robert Frost the fork, you know, the two roads, the lob road less traveled by. And, you know, that's really what happened to me, we all come to these points of decision in our lives. And it takes us down a different path. And when I was I was newly married in Dallas, and like, oh gosh, what year was 2004 1994? Sorry, 94. And, um, and I, I had been a high school English teacher and then I had been accounts, psychological, you know, psychology counselor, done career personal crisis counseling, but I was sort of trying to figure out what my path was going to be still and didn't neither one of those were going to be the ones and so I got a job as a mortgage broker and I I really thought that I was excited about that job because it was flexible, and I wanted to have children and and then they called me the day before. And they said, Hey, we've got a hiring freeze. And so the door shut, I was in tears. I remember my stepmom saying, hey, sometimes God has to work a miracle and close the door that shouldn't be open. And then the next thing I know, I get recruited by a company out of California called CBP. And they published the Myers Briggs Type Indicator, most of you probably heard of that. And I ended up working for them. And that was the change in my path. And that took me into corporate education, it took me this, you know, the direction that I'm in now the leadership and, and the rest, then I started running firms in 2001, and did the acquisition in 2007.

Joel Goldberg 10:51

So as is usually the case, with most people a long way of getting there, and you never quite know where it's going to take you. But it's taking you there. I'm sure like any company that EDA has evolved over the years. So really a two part question here. One, how has it evolved to what do you love most about your company, and what you guys are able to do for so many others?

Bonnie Hagemann 11:15

Well, it's absolutely evolving. Right now, we're super excited about that, because we're really moving from doing which is the services where we go in and do leadership tokens, coaching, and we do succession planning, all that stuff, to equipping so we'll still have those for that real, you know, top of the house when you need help. But we have built this technology platform that's designed to make culture visible, and to give the all the tools that you would need to make a conducive environment. And so that's how we're evolving. Super, super excited about that. That is why Dave Komar has come as you said, Brigadier General, Dave Komar, has come on to be our president, and operationalize our growth in tech, and, and so much more than he loves leadership and culture, as you've said. So we're super excited about that. And my personal favorite part of anything to do with leadership is it has layers and layers of impact. If you help one person be a better leader, that affects so many others. And so it just feels like you're doing good for the world.

Joel Goldberg 12:22

Yeah, which is really what it's all about, especially when you see a click to write. I mean, that's that moment where you're able to however it is, I mean, for me, and I think you as well, you've written three books to one down, and I think more to go, but when you could share that with others, then you see it click so whether it's hearing from someone that that read something in the book and say, oh, wait a minute, I get this or whether it's that presentation and somebody comes up to you immediately after or later, it's extremely for me, you start to feel some of that purpose. And that that gratification of understanding that your work was able to help others. That's something that you've done, really, I think all over the country in the world over the course of your career, right?

Bonnie Hagemann 13:03

Yes, that's true. And by the way, I have your book right here. It's very nice.

Joel Goldberg 13:08

I've got yours too. But well, I've got I've got the I think the most recent one was was what you gave me. I want to talk about that in a bit because it is just chock full of so many great stories and inspiration from amazing female leaders from around not just the country, but around the world that you met. I'll ask you about that in now. You know, I'll go there right now, because you had the chance to, to meet a lot of incredible women during a stint, I believe, for you at Harvard, when you're doing a program there. And I'm curious what that did for you. Not just the program, but the access to so many other people that have walked in your shoes.

Bonnie Hagemann 13:50

Well, that was another one of those crazy turns in the path. Back in 2016. I ended up going to this program called women on board succeeding as a corporate director at the Harvard Business School. And you know, I grew up on a farm in western Oklahoma, Joel, and the thought of going to Harvard never crossed my mind. Not once ever. And so what I happen to get two people sent me this class on the same day because they the both of them knew I was looking for a corporate board. And so I decided that it must be signed. So I applied I ended up getting accepted and ended up with in a program for an executive program with 67 women from 17 countries. And that first year, and we spent a week together and these were very high level women, they were you know, CEOs and they were dignitaries, you know, people from these other countries and one person's family founded Pakistan and a woman who was over women's equality at UNESCO and, and public company CEOs. I mean, it was just full of amazing women. And so um After that, there were two, there was another year that came through, we all tried to stay together with phone calls. And in 2018, I had this idea to formalize us. And we formalized a network, which is now called Women execs on boards. And I did that with one of my other classmates, Lisa Pent are co founders. And we also are co authors of the book that you're talking about. So today, just this is one of those crazy things that went well, and is going well. And so today, we have 240 plus members from over 30 countries. They're amazing. They're on big fortune 500 boards, and big companies and big jobs. I mean, even even some of them are not the CEO, their jobs are bigger than like small countries. And so. So that went really well. So the last book actually profiles 36 of those women. And it's called the courage to advance and what the publisher wanted, you know, to be, it's inspiring, it's meant to be inspiring. So it tells their story, it tells the hard things that they've been through, and then how they got through it, and advice back to the reader. So it's a little Chicken Soup for the Soul, but all around leadership. And it's not just for women, it's also for men. I mean, we absolutely want men to read this book, because every woman in the network has not just in the book, but in the network has had discrimination at some point. And every woman in the network has also had a champion who was a man.

Joel Goldberg 16:33

Well, I've read bits and pieces to this point. It's inspiring, just because everyone, I've always believed this, everybody has a story to tell. But we are talking about, as you suggested, seriously accomplished people and not not to, to demean denigrate or minimize being a CEO. But you mentioned it too. I mean, we're talking dignitaries, we're talking about people that are there, even at a higher level than that, in terms of where they're from in their countries. It really it really is inspiring. So I have two follow ups regarding that. One is the discrimination piece, because maybe that's getting better. I think I think everything is getting better. But we're still so far away. So where are we right now? I mean, it is. It's thinking about this. I mean, you look up at any point, and representation is better, whether it's turning on the TV, whether it's in my world of baseball, suddenly you're seeing women that are in the booth calling play by play, and instead of saying, wait a minute, what are they doing here? That by the way, there's still too much attention on it, because it's still rare enough that it does raise eyebrows, but it's not as shocking as it was before. It should have never been shocking. So that to me is progress. But the fact that we still talk about it means we're not where we need to be what are you seeing in the corporate world?

Bonnie Hagemann 17:50

Yeah, that's absolutely right. We're not we're we have come a long ways. But we have so far to go. You know, in fact, this the statistics coming out of the United Nations say that we were over 115 years from gender equality at our current pace, before COVID. Today, we're over 200 years, we were set back tremendously with women because women are the primary caretakers, and they go home and they have many went home and didn't go back in the workforce for one reason or another, or to change jobs to lesser jobs. And so we ended up really taking a step back, and there's a lot of work left to do. And, you know, I'm an unintentional gender advocate, because personally, I never really felt a lot of discrimination. But having been around all of these women, now I understand the depth of you know, how we can get held back. And so it just, I'm very passionate about it now and doing all that I can to help advance it much quicker than 200 years. So we have to work together on that.

Joel Goldberg 18:57

So that's the one piece and hopefully we can make those gains back post COVID quicker than we did before COVID Because I think a lot of that groundwork has been set I hope that we're going in the right direction but I also thought it was interesting I mean I you know this I took furious notes as Did you by the way that another another way that we click your notes, by the way are much easier to read than mine. So I'm typing mics, I can't write well, terrible penmanship. But I remember you furiously writing notes as we met for coffee as well. But one of the things I wrote down was this, that that you said that you you met the highest level women from around the world. We just talked about that all helping each other. But you said they all and I think we all and I'm not just talking women here have impostor syndrome. And people wouldn't expect that right? Like they think, oh, in my case, I think they think the oh, he's on TV. He's got this. Yeah, all these things are true. It doesn't mean that I don't suffer from impostor syndrome. That doesn't mean that the big time CEO doesn't suffer from impostor syndrome. I'm curious, when that really resonated with you? And if it was like, oh, wait a minute, I'm not the only one here. Most people are like this.

Bonnie Hagemann 20:11

Yes. And you're so right, Joel. And actually, there's a lot of research that says the higher level performer you are like, where you are. And and the athletes and great actors and, you know, high level executives, the more likely you are to have it. So it's, there's something about the high performance and the imposter syndrome that that goes together. But yes, what I've learned is that every single woman to a person in our network has it somewhere that I have yet to find one who doesn't. And it's like, this conversation that we have inside of ourselves that might be saying it, you know, it doesn't matter. I'm, you know, this one woman. She's been the CEO of a very well known company, in Portugal, in Spain, Maria Garcia, and so she actually built and sold a business and sold it to Jeff Bezos, before any of us were really talking about him. And then she goes on to be the CEO of Office Depot for Spain and Portugal. And now she's on these great boards. But Maria said, Maria came to the US as an illegal immigrant or undocumented immigrant. And she was here from 11 to 18. She's undocumented, had to learn to speak the language, siblings, parents couldn't even come not enough money yet. Siblings had to work in factories, so she could go to school. And, you know, and then she, she does, she gets a full ride, she makes it she's like, incredible. But she said she would go to places. And even today, she said, I'm still wondering, do I have the right shoes? Am I sending the right signals? And, you know, just it's very touching to think about, you know, what goes on inside of people.

Joel Goldberg 21:57

And a reminder that even someone so accomplished, can still go back to those early moments that give her that, you know, whatever the cause is, right, and I put up in so many people. But that had to be really eye opening for you too.

Bonnie Hagemann 22:12

it's very eye opening. And there was another time, we were all in front of this recruiter. And there were 52 of us. And we were sharing our board pitches. And at the end of it, the recruiter was the only man in the room. And so they asked him for feedback. And he said, Well, I still don't know what most of you do. So you know, at that point, he started asking some questions. And I realized we all undersell ourselves, too, that's another it's a major thing that happens with women is we do not really sell ourselves. It's just not the way women do it. And so he turns to one of those, like, you know, Jenny, you know, you said you have this company, this financial management company, you know, how, how many countries did you work in? How much manage how much, you know, capital under management, we call it assets under management. And she has well, you know, 6,000,000, in 16 countries. He goes start with that, I'll follow you out of the elevator.

Joel Goldberg 23:10

I have to think before we get to the baseball theme questions that the access to those women who I'm pretty sure now a lot of them are your good friends, and certainly at the minimum part of your network had to have been a life changing moment for you.

Bonnie Hagemann 23:23

absolutely life changing. I mean, my life is so much richer for knowing them. They're incredible. And everyone has come together. Like we understood, you know, this is a bunch of strong women, I mean, very, you know, high level jobs. So they're tough, and the women who have who are at the top now, they've really been through it, right, like, we're clearing the path for the next group. But for most of us, you know, we we had to do it differently the hard way. We had to dress like men, you know, act like man sometimes to get into the jobs, fight our way through. So these are tough groups. And, you know, we said in the beginning, we have to have a culture in our network of 100% committed to each other success. And everybody wrapped around that. And we're doing it and I think that's the difference. We're really doing it we're helping each other. We're pulling each other into boards into companies and working together to make a difference.

Joel Goldberg 24:19

It's great stuff. Okay, let's let's hit the baseball themed questions. Maybe we covered some of this, maybe not we'll find out what the answer is, what is the biggest homerun that you have hit in your career?

Bonnie Hagemann 24:29

I actually think it's the network. It was one of those things that wasn't expecting and it just it took off and it's still taking off and it blows me away.

Joel Goldberg 24:40

Well, again, I'll encourage everybody to read the book to find out more about these women as well because you'll you'll get a you'll get a good feel for that. Second question. Is the swinging a miss what is your swinging a miss and what did you learn from it?

Bonnie Hagemann 24:57

Well, I've had just as big swing and misses. So when we did the acquisition and of EDA in 2007, the plan was to raise capital and roll up some small companies, and you know, try to get it to significant size. But so we did the acquisition, and January 2007. And then I, so now got debt, and 2008 comes along. And so we went from thinking, we're going to do something great to trying to survive, and it was 10 years to dig out of that, and we got down to the bare bones had to rebuild completely, barely missed going out of business. And, you know, we were, we were 100% debt free one month before COVID hit.

Joel Goldberg 25:49

Which is, I don't even know, you know, what parts of the swing and miss what parts the bad luck sometimes, right? We say in baseball, you just you control what you can control? And some of it you can't, obviously and you've got to be able to react to it. Last question. In terms of the baseball theme questions, small ball, that you were just holding up the book, which I appreciate, what are the little things that add up to the big results for you?

Bonnie Hagemann 26:12

Well, I love your whole concept of small ball, Joel, that, you know, these are things that I give to high potentials when we go talk to them, I always say you're there a few things. One is bring your A game every day. Like don't, don't give yourself the luxury of a bad day. Just get up, put your game face on and get in there and give it 100% Because you know, being halfway of anything, versus not helpful. And two, it's not gonna get you anywhere. And then I tell them things like, you know, when you see a leadership gap step in it, and don't just let that gap sit there, that's your opportunity to be a leader. And you know, just these little steps almost self talk, you know, things are very much a part of it. But if I only had to leave you with one it would be bring your A game every day.

Joel Goldberg 27:04

The best the best always bring their A game by the way, it might not always feel like the a game to them. Because we have off days, right? You can't always be on top of your game. But you can bring your A game in terms of effort in terms of warfare, and all of that. No, no doubt about it. And the good ones figure out. We say this a lot in baseball to that the good ones, especially the pitchers, but really anyone they find a way they're most impressive when they excel on their bad days. Because you don't always have it, right. Whether you're not feeling 100% I'm not just talking about sports here, you know, you know, you're under the weather a little bit, whatever it is, and you got to dig down deep and trust yourself to be able to find a way the good ones always find a way and that to me is the

Bonnie Hagemann 27:49

Yeah, it's you know, it's a heart issue. Yeah, when when we when I was growing up in western Oklahoma, there's a saying that says you can count the number of seeds in a bushel, but you can't count the number of bushels in a seed. It's like you never know what's inside of a person. And it's the heart you know, and that that heart sets people apart.

Joel Goldberg 28:12

Well, that's a great way to end the audio version of the podcast, we do have more as we always do, or almost always do. So I hope you'll go check us out on YouTube. The link will be in the show notes. But if you just search rounding the bases with Joel Goldberg, and you'll find Bonnie's extra innings piece of this podcast on YouTube but really appreciate everybody joining us Bonnie if anybody wants to get a hold of you or EDA, how can they do so?

Bonnie Hagemann 28:39

Well the website is EDA inc.io Our new web that's our new website excited about that and then you can always reach out to me on LinkedIn at bonding Hagerman.

Joel Goldberg 28:47

Okay, so that is easily done EDA Inc. Dot I O for anybody that wants to learn more about Barney Hagemann, about Dave Komar or about this company that that just stresses culture among amongst us. I should mention to the books the one that we referenced The Courage to Advance: Real Life Resilience from the World's Most Successful Women in Business written by Bonnie and she mentioned Lisa Pent as well. And then the others I believe, Leading with Vision: The Leaders Blueprint for Creating a Compelling Vision and Engaging the Workforce. Right and the other one, I think there's Trends in Executive Development, is that right?

Bonnie Hagemann 29:32

Well, we have a we do research every approximately every three years called Trends and Executive Development and if you can get all of these on Amazon, but the other book that we did was in 2012 and that was Decades of Differences so it's a little older now we don't have Gen Z in there but that's that was the third book

Joel Goldberg 29:52

okay yeah cuz the other one is every few years that the trends one but but

Bonnie Hagemann 29:56

but that's our research. Yes. And it we do have one out now and it is It's pretty fascinating if you have leaders and you have a company you would probably enjoy looking at trends and executive development

Joel Goldberg 30:07

great stuff Bonnie I appreciate it appreciate the friendship and the future collaboration thanks so much for spending time on rounding the bases

Bonnie Hagemann 30:15

Thank you Joel it's pleasure to be here